This week, we continue our series “Voices of Disability Pride” with local musician and pastor, Reverend Chris Wylie, aka DJ Pastor Rock. While you may have heard him on our air recently talking about music, in this episode we share part of a recent conversation Wylie had with WBFO's Emyle Watkins about the barriers they faced going into ministry as a disabled pastor. While this segment has been edited for length and clarity, you can listen to the entire interview below.
PLAIN LANGUAGE DESCRIPTION: This week's episode is part of a series, called Voices of Disability Pride, where WBFO features people with disabilities, their work and advice for other disabled people. This week, pastor and musician Chris Wylie joins us for a conversation. Chris also uses the stage name "DJ Pastor Rock." Chris talks with WBFO's Emyle Watkins about the barriers they faced going into ministry with a disability.
FULL INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript provided by a contractor and may be updated over time to be more accurate.
Emyle Watkins: Hi, Chris. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today.
Chris Wylie: Hi, Emyle. Nice to be here.
Emyle Watkins: I want to kick things off by asking you one of my favorite questions, which is: if you could tell people only one thing about you, what would you want them to know?
Chris Wylie: Oh, that's a lot. There's so many ways to go with that, that I'm multifaceted. See, I can't go just one place, that I'm a disability activist, that I'm a musician, I'm a parent, I'm lots of things. So it's hard for me at my age to narrow down to one thing.
Emyle Watkins: Well, I think that's also reflective of the community too, is like none of us are just one thing.
Chris Wylie: I think that's true.
Emyle Watkins: And I know your stage name as a musician is DJ Pastor Rock, but you are legitimately also a pastor. I would love to hear more about why you went into ministry and what that journey was like for you.
Chris Wylie: I am actually a United Methodist ordained elder, and that journey was not real easy for me. That was a complicated journey as things are for people with disabilities where I remember a friend of mine said, "You'll have people who advocate for you, and you'll have people who kind of push against you a little bit." And I certainly saw all of those things, but at the end of the day, I had a really good district superintendent and some really good allies, and I made it through the process. But it is a long process as it is, and it was complicated, like so many things with disability.
Emyle Watkins: What were some of the parts of it that were complicated?
Chris Wylie: Just the pushback from people and not knowing disability themselves because they're not disabled, so maybe a little bit of ableism if I'm being frank. And just people being skeptical about whether or not you could do the job and that sort of thing. And early on I didn't really get a lot of questions about my theology. I got more questions about my disability, which I had some issues with because they're there really to hear about me and where I am theologically, but it kind of shied away from that. Again, I had a lot of resistance just based on my disability. That was complicated. But again, I also had some really great allies and that meant a lot. That's how I made it. I was not on my own.
Emyle Watkins: Thank you for sharing that. That sounds like it was really difficult. It kind of makes me wonder too, do you think your experiences as a disabled person have also influenced your theology or made you a better pastor?
Chris Wylie: Yeah, I do actually. I think it's made me a better person. I think when anybody comes from a marginalized community, they know what it's like sort of to be on the outside of things. And so just having that awareness and tending toward, trending toward being more inclusive, being more aware, being more empathetic, being more understanding, I think goes a long way. And certainly that comes into play with no matter what you're doing, but especially when you're thinking about matters of faith and inclusion. For me, my entire theology comes down to helping people on the outside move into the inside, to know they're loved. And so being disabled certainly had a big influence on that.
Emyle Watkins: Do you think there are ways that churches and faith communities really can improve for disabled people and help them have more visibility within their faith communities?
Chris Wylie: I think just pay attention. I mean, there's a lot of practical physical barriers. There's a lot of inaccessible churches, and I mean I roll, I'm a wheelchair user, so I understand it from that perspective primarily, but also even with other disabilities and things. Just to know that people need different accommodations and help work toward those accommodations, and help lower the barriers because again, that's what faith really does, right? It helps, you're supposed to, at its best, let me say it that way, rather than what you're supposed to do, at its best, faith is about, again, bringing people into the circle of love.
Emyle Watkins: And you've pivoted from traditional ministry to being a musician and running a nonprofit. Tell me more about what that's been like and what you enjoy about it.
Chris Wylie: I did, well, I was a musician long before I was a pastor actually. And I've been around a while and I mentioned my advancing years a little bit. So I've been a musician since I was about 16, so 40 years. So I did that first, and then I was in banking, and then I was in advertising sales for a long time, and then I made my way into ministry and then back into music. So I've kind of gone all the way full circle. But really the work with the nonprofit and the music, it's another way to communicate the message, right? Another way to be inclusive. Using music to help fund wheelchair van grants, which is what the nonprofit does, is super important to me because I realized how difficult that process can be and how expensive that process can be. And the music itself is just another platform to bring the message of equity, of justice and of inclusion and love.
Emyle Watkins: Is there a reason why that message of inclusion love is so important to you? Or was there a moment in your life where you were like, "I know no matter what, this is the message I'm trying to spread." Was there a pivotal moment where you realized the world needed more of that?
Chris Wylie: I think it's a bunch of little moments, and I think it's a bunch of little moments for a lot of people. I think one thing disability does is make you, again, more aware and more apathetic and understanding. And so it's a bunch of little moments where you see and feel what it's like to be on the outside, and then know that you want to bring people on the inside. So I don't know if it's one moment, but I think a lot of people, disability advocates who were kind to me, and willing to have conversations with me early on in my journey, and then again later on in my journey. And that's what it's about. It's about community, it's about connection, and all those things, to me, speak to love and inclusion.
Emyle Watkins: And you mentioned some barriers, but I'm wondering more specifically, are there certain barriers you've experienced throughout your life that you think other disabled people experience, and how have you navigated those barriers?
Chris Wylie: Well, I mean, other than the practical physical, which you can do, and there often are people around who are able to help, but there certainly are frustrations too, is how do I navigate those barriers like a lot of other disability activists? You have to be a little bit more pushy than maybe sometimes is comfortable. You have to go a little bit beyond where a lot of people have to go. I know you talked about that in some of your other interviews for this segment, and I think that's a common theme. You just have to keep going. You have to keep going forward. One of my songs, Rolling Nation, in the beginning, I say something like, "You may be asking yourself, 'Chris, where do I go?'" And I say, "There's one way to go, go forward." That's what you do. And sometimes that's harder, and sometimes you might make it further than you think.
Emyle Watkins: Are there certain skills or perspectives or people that helped you get to where you are today?
Chris Wylie: Yeah. As far as the skills, I'm super extroverted, so that always is helpful because I don't mind being in the middle of things. But I've had a lot of people, one disability activist who is really important to me early on is Laura Hershey. I met Laura Hershey, who was a poet and activist and a person in Colorado, I think at the time. And I met them in the beginning of the internet, the early days of the internet, I was searching for my place in the disabled community, and I reached out to them and they have a poem called, You Get Proud by Practicing, which I love. But I reached out to them based on that poem, and I said, "I really like your work. Would you be willing to be in conversation with me?" And they were.
And so they were super meaningful. And then theologically, there's a book, an old book now called, The Disabled God, which had a big impact on me because it's a liberatory book about disability, I can't remember the exact title. There's a subtitle at the end, but it's basically liberation theology centered around disability. And so that was important. And then in more recent years, some of the even younger disability activists and advocates like Emily Ladau are really, really doing great work. And Imani Barbarin and Robyn Powell, who I met through Disabled Parenting Project, a lot of people along the way, so many people doing so many great things.
Emyle Watkins: Sounds like networking has been a big part of your journey.
Chris Wylie: Networking for sure, but just being interested, right? I'm a parent, so a Disabled Parenting Project came in, and I met some of my other friends and connect people in other ways. But just being interested and looking for those disabled spaces, those disabled people spaces, and hearing what other people have to say is always interesting to me.
Emyle Watkins: If you could give advice to a younger Chris or another person with a disability who's just getting started on their self-advocacy journey, what would you tell them?
Chris Wylie: Keep going, keep going, keep pushing. Don't let what you can't do stop you from doing what you can. It can be scary, but a lot of times it's maybe not as scary as you think. I kind of think of it like skipping rocks. I remember when I was first going to seminary, for example, I wasn't as particularly religious as some of the other people who I knew would be there. And I thought, "How can I possibly do all this?" But you don't really do that. Again, think of a skipping of a rock on a lake or a pond. It bounces one place, and then it bounces another place, and then it bounces a little more, and pretty soon you're across the pond. And so just don't be afraid. Just roll forward and be yourself.
Emyle Watkins: Watching your journey, you've become very forward with your advocacy, and I think a lot of young disabled people aren't sure how forward to be. Especially because I think we're constantly balancing these expectations people have of how disabled people should be, and kind of this expectation that we should be eternally grateful just for what we have. How do you balance expectation with advocacy?
Chris Wylie: Always be kind, as kind as you can be. I'm certainly kinder when I sense that people are trying because people don't know what they don't know. And my experience is my experience. I don't know everything there is to know about disability. I only know what my journey is like, and what the journey is like from some friends who I listen to, but I can only know a small window of that. But also, don't let other people define you. Don't let other people tell you what you can and can't do.
Ultimately, my message is not really, "I'll burn you to the ground." It's more, "Let me in. Let me be part of this." We just celebrated the 34th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act. It's been 34 years, I should be able to get in a building. I should have a ramp, it shouldn't have to be something I ask for anymore. Sometimes it is. Sometimes that can be difficult when you face that again and again and again. It's not one thing, it's a series of things. But again, just to answer your question, to go back to how do you do it? Just don't let other people define you.
Emyle Watkins: And what do you wish non-disabled people understood about our community? Again, going back to this idea of expectations or stereotypes.
Chris Wylie: How amazing we are. We're not that different. I mean, the musicians that I mentioned, or I'm not sure I mentioned, but I mentioned the Americans with Disabilities Act, the ADA 34. And so we had the Disability Pride Festival, and there were a bunch of amazing, amazing musicians and poets and creatives there. And just recognize that, just don't look at us as, "Oh, we're separate somehow. We are who we are. So recognize that, I want you to see my disability." I don't want people to say, "Oh, I don't see you as disabled. I want people to see my whole person." But also just recognize again, how much we fit. Like Buffalo has a great music scene, and disabled people are a part of that. So just see us and listen to us. And again, how creative we are. I think disability itself is creative.
Emyle Watkins: And lastly, this is kind of my popcorn question, but who do you look up to or admire in the disability community?
Chris Wylie: You, I admire you for one, but there's so many people in our community, some of whom I already mentioned. But locally, before we did the segment, we talked about Mike Rogers, who's an amazing person, and BJ Stasio, who's an amazing person. And you are an amazing person. But then also Chelsea O'Donnell, Stress Dolls, amazing, amazing musician, fellow RAMPD professional member like me. I'm the treasurer actually of RAMPD, which is the Recording Artists and Music Professionals with Disabilities. And we amplify disability cultures. So we have Chelsea O'Donnell right here who's doing some of that too. And again, there's a lot of us. More than you think.
Emyle Watkins: Yeah. Well, thank you. That's really kind of you to say. And thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today.
Chris Wylie: It's my pleasure to be here. It's always great to spend time with you.
